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SALFORD PEOPLE HAVE THEIR SAY ON THE EUROPEAN REFERENDUM
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Star date: 13th June 2016 SHOULD WE GO OR SHOULD WE STAY NOW? The Government is paying £396,095 per each `Counting Officer' to fund the European Referendum on 23rd June. That's a lot of money that could pay for all sorts of front line services, so the Salford Star urges everyone to vote; although, as usual, we never tell anyone which way to vote. Instead, we have the Leave or Remain arguments articulated by two Salford people, Alice Searle for remain and Gary Duke for leave. Full debate here...
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On 23rd June Salford people have the choice to stay in the European Union, or leave. What shall we do? Here, Alice Searle, who, in 1995, produced a Teachers' Tutorial book called 'Eurofocus' for the Department of Employment, states why she's voting to remain in the EU, and lecturer Gary Duke states why he's voting to leave...
Gary Duke: Why The People of Salford Should Vote to Leave the EU... We hear many of the arguments from the pro-Eu camp, most focussing on fear and the business argument for staying in Europe. Farage and the racist right are, of course, focussing on the issue of immigration and sovereignty with nationalist arguments for leaving. The people of Salford should have no truck with the racists. Yet there is also a working class, internationalist argument for leaving the EU. As workers living in a city that has consistently returned Labour MPs, instead of grasping David Cameron's shirt tails, we must put forward arguments that put our jobs and the public services we depend on first. Let's be clear, the EU is no friend to workers. The austerity policies promoted by Cameron here are the same EU policies that have destroyed the Greek economy, destroying millions of jobs and lives. Some argue that the EU 'Social Chapter' has secured significant benefits for workers in the UK. Yet history shows us that gains made by the collective efforts of workers are the gains that last. Since the time of the Great Chartist Movement, 1838-48, Salford people have thrown themselves into the battle for workers' rights. Given our history of struggle, why on earth should we accept those 'rights' handed down to us by unelected European bureaucrats? We have the strictest anti-trade union laws in Europe. New Labour never scrapped these laws nor did the EU. Labour is essentially supporting Cameron's 'stay' campaign, the same Cameron who wants to beef up the anti-trade union laws to make it more difficult for workers to strike to protect jobs, services and the futures of our children. While we've been members of the EU we've seen massive sell-offs of public services and jobs, driving down wages and working conditions in the 'race to the bottom'. This is Project EU. Lastly immigration. Salford has historically welcomed people from all around the globe and is now a vibrant multicultural city. Workers from immigrant communities help sustain our NHS and transport systems. International students studying at Salford University have brought money and vital skills into Salford, many now working in our hospitals and in industry. We welcomed immigrant workers to the UK and to Salford before we were members of the EU. We will continue to do so if we choose to leave. As we see the barbed wire fences being erected across Europe to keep out refugee children escaping a terrible civil war in Syria and Iraq, the real face of the EU has been exposed, and it's a Europe that puts the most vulnerable last. Project EU is a project for continuing austerity, for deepening racism and the removal of the welfare systems that as workers, we depend on. That's why we should vote to leave.
Alice Searle: Why The People of Salford Should Vote to Remain in the EU...
Yes I want to stay but I want a better EU! By staying in there is more chance of achieving this. Unlike the 'Outers', who have ignored EU progress, I welcome its benefits. Take the air we breathe.
Global warming is threatening. The EU has issued directives to reduce CO2 emissions. Manchester and Salford haven't reached the EU targets but you will have noticed low carbon buses and road side air quality monitoring stations. We surely don't want to go back to 'killer' smogs. Through the EU we no longer have lead in petrol, thus protecting children's health. Let's not be sentimental about the 'Dirty Old Town.' Let's reduce the number of inhalers carried by children. Take water and waste pollution.
EU water quality regulations have led to cleaner rivers. Fish are back in the River Irwell because depositing of chemical waste is outlawed by the EU. Our beaches and coast lines are cleaner too; no longer do our children paddle in sewage! What about Fracking?
Fracking will increase CO2 and pollute water systems. Lancashire has been targeted for fracking but the public are saying 'No' as we saw at Barton Moss and Fylde. The majority of EU states, led by France, are against it, although our Government is determined to push it through. The EU could, like the GM foods debate, save us from our own Government's unpopular policy. What about the quality of our working life?
We hear moans about EU Health and Safety regulations. These are not trivial, but designed to protect workers from chemical, electrical and construction accidents and to avoid gastric outbreaks through food hygiene. Speaking as a Woman…
...and a mother I appreciate the regulations that are protecting maternity leave and employment rights. They have made a radical difference to family life. What about the Freedom of Movement?
The 'Outers' propaganda tends to focus on the EU 'freedom of movement.' This encourages bigotry and fears by pushing the 'stealing our jobs' belief. There is little reference to the 1.8million UK nationals living and working in the EU. In comparison there are 2.3million EU nationals working here; a reasonable balance. Coming for our Benefits!
EU migrants come to work. They are nurses, doctors, IT experts and craftsmen. They compete on a level playing field with UK nationals. They pay taxes and fill the gaps in labour shortage. The low paid are often on seasonal projects or doing factory work, which UK residents don't want. Exploitation is not the fault of the EU; it is a UK matter. For me there are more pros than cons. The 1946 aim of 'European communities working together for peace' is still valid. My current criticisms lie with the intrusion of neo-liberal politics, pushing for profit before people; an example being the secret TTIP plans. In spite of this, I still believe the way forward is co-operation: drawing upon the abilities, the intelligence and skills of the whole of Europe. We will always be stronger together.
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RayofSunshine wrote
at 21:35:18 on 23 June 2016 |
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| So Michael you are voting for "a better yesterday" -- back to time when "Britain ruled
the waves" and workers, women and "continentals" knew their place!
How pathetic, how infantile!
UKIP is as relevant to modern Britain as
"Noddy in Toyland"!
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Michael James Felse wrote
at 09:59:27 on 23 June 2016 |
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| Hi S-Ray. In answer, Farage has seen why the inside of the EU chamber stinks. Boris saw as London Mayor damage to Cities. If you want to go with Corbyn good luck - I am voting Leave today. |
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Dar... wrote
at 07:48:37 on 23 June 2016 |
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| Ignore the pointless bickering of the 'right' and 'left', neither control the EU. Corporations, the USA and the billionaires who own them, control the EU; like they controlled the EEC before it. Do you want them to own you and your kids and grandkids too? Your government has almost no control of the EU. Cameron's embarrassing fail at negotiating meaningful change proved that. If your government is virtually powerless in influencing Brussels what hope is there for you? You can't reform what you don't own. Your vote means nothing to Brussels. Be honest, do you even know the boundaries of the euro constituency you live in? How many euro mp's represent you? One? Two? Ten? Who are they? What powers do they have? What powers don't they have? In truth you would probably have to google it wouldn't you? Do you truly have the right to vote to remain in a system that you don't actually know anything about? Vote leave. Not because you're a Nazi or a Marxist. Vote leave because you're English and proud of English achievements. Vote leave because you understand your own system and its' many flaws but haven't seen it bettered by anyone yet. Vote leave because you've already proved to the world that as a nation you can stand on your own two feet. Vote leave because you'd rather be governed by your own people than by foreign interests, and there's nothing wrong or fascist or racist or xenophobic with any of that. It's just common sense. |
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RayofSunshine wrote
at 10:18:49 on 22 June 2016 |
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| Michael will your position on UKIP change if
post Cameron, they reach an accommodation with
the Tories or "il deuce Farage" is offered a safe Conservative seat?
Question -- how does "a points based" immigration system help to protect and increase the pay of the low or semi skilled, since such a scheme is designed only to regulate the supply of skilled/professional labour? |
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Happy Days wrote
at 17:24:58 on 21 June 2016 |
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| C M Hill, you are not exactly using your full name yourself.
Maybe stick to reporting on the One Show, please do tell.
People like me that you do not know but choose to be very judgemental about based on very little or no information.
People like me care for our future, our kids future, our countries future. That doesn't make me any different to you and if I am so wrong, then you along with me is also wrong.
Bigot. |
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Michael James Felse wrote
at 12:29:58 on 21 June 2016 |
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| SunnyRay asks questions. In fact I have no problem with the English Democrats. They seek the same for England as has Scotland and Wales. I support that. They are a caring, considerate, challenged group but I feel it will be 3 years until they reach full potential. And UKIP, I believe, is part of a same answer being won. It is why I will vote Leave this Thursday. Good for jobs in Salford. Good for health. Good for border protection. As for the gay issue, UKIP is open to debate. However I pity other parties that say one thing and do an opposite. Take the on going investigation into Labour about Jewish rights. Or Conservatives rejecting gay applicants for membership. Neither is equal on women MPs or Councillor representation. Let us for now vote to Leave the EU then get more rights sorted for the better of the UK. |
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Michael James Felse wrote
at 12:29:50 on 21 June 2016 |
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| CMHill allow me to correct you. I am no more a German Nazi than I am a Communist. I am an English citizen, living in the UK, wanting to reclaim borders that are failing today. I want to protect the land my family has lived in for over 400 years. I have no problem with legal migration. I have full compassion for aid assisted at risk migrants. I have deep fear about an open door to Turkey, Terrorist, Pedophiles, People traffickers and Rapists. I will vote to Leave the EU this Thursday with the greatest of pride. |
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C M Hill wrote
at 20:03:39 on 20 June 2016 |
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| Happy Days why not come out of hiding and use your real name? UKIP constantly peddle its right wing lies it hasn't presented a single fact. If UKIP are going to use propaganda posters virtually identical to the Nazi party don't get upset by comparison. My father proudly fought from 1939 to 1945 against people like you. FACT |
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Happy Days wrote
at 17:08:42 on 20 June 2016 |
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| C M Hill >>>>>>
“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”
OR
Name-calling is one of the most common tactics people use to hurt others or disparage them. It often occurs when someone has an emotional argument to make with little or no supporting logical argument.
Most people who indulge in name-calling know that the label or name they choose to describe another individual is not factually accurate. The label is often regarded as hyperbole or as a metaphor. Something which more accurately describes how the speaker feels about the other person than what the speaker actually thinks about the other person.
The UKIP bus is in Salford today, I suggest you take the opportunity to visit it for real "FACTS".
Vote OUT.
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C M Hill wrote
at 14:17:38 on 19 June 2016 |
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| Can anyone see a difference between UKIP and the German NAZI party of 1939 because I can't. Felse is just an embittered historically challenged idiot. Use your common sense and vote REMAIN |
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RayofSunshine wrote
at 11:37:12 on 19 June 2016 |
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| Michael when did you stop bring "an English DemoRat"? Did you leave "The DemoRats" or did
"The DemoRats" leave you? My money is on the latter.
The reason why I ask is that I'm curious to
know how long your love affair with UKIP will last? One, two, maybe three months?
How can you be a member of a party that in the late nineties and beyond opposed measusres aimed at greater
equality for gays and lesbian, including Civil Partnerships?
How do you square this circle? |
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David Cameron wrote
at 15:52:14 on 18 June 2016 |
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| Had my run ins with mr felse in the past, but have to agree with him and dar. See the people on the left "the great debaters" once again loosing the debate. Once they loose the debate they revert back to using the words nazi, fascists. What will these people do when our armed forces are forced to join a European army under the control of unelected European bureaucrats, what will they say when their sons and daughters have to do national service in the European army, who are they going to complain to, when our government is no longer sovereign, what happens if there is civil unrest in Britain, will we have a foreign European army sent to quell the dissent. Britain since the Second World War has took our freedoms for granted. It's now time for Britain to take back control of our sovereignty, to once again lead Europe to freedom, not through armed force, but through the ballot box. This country traded with the world, let's go back to trading with the world. Only the isolationists in the European Union fear free open trade and fear Britain leaving the insular European trading block. Free countries prevent war, not countries grouping together to make mass armies and making trading barriers against the poorest countries ie African nations. Vote leave on June 23rd, let's make our own future for this country, let's not, be a bit part player in someone else's. Neil kinnock's, Richard branson, tony Blair, bob Geldof, multimillionaires protecting their own interests, all on the payroll of the European Union gravy train, all believe in cheap foreign labour to keep the wages of the indigenous lowest paid down. Who do you believe, this lot or ukip MEPs who are voting them selves out of a well paid job and a nice fat pension, UKIP putting the countries interest, before their own interest. |
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Michael James Felse wrote
at 10:45:15 on 17 June 2016 |
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| Wow - thank you for your congratulations SunnyRay. I am sure there will be a flood of ex labour members joining UKIP after the leave vote on Thursday to rid us of Cameron and Osborn and to reclaim our borders in safeguarding and protecting communities. |
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RayofSunshine wrote
at 09:19:42 on 17 June 2016 |
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| Michael, congratulations are in order; what's
it like finally making it to the ranks of
"The Herrenvolke" -- you are now a card carrying Ukipper ! Did you have to go through a rigorous recruitment and vetting
process? Did you have to prove your lineage back to Ethel red the Unready, sing the "Horse Vessel Song" three times backwards and undergo intrusive testing at the Appleton Rutherford Laboratory to establish the racial purity of the neutrinos being omitted from
your backside?
But then again not really! After all UKIP is the
Party of misogynist, Geoffrey Bloom and Neo Fascist wannabe, Neil Hamilton!
I've got no doubt that UKIP welcomed you, a presumptious, poujadist plonker with a warm embrace! |
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Sean Spark wrote
at 07:40:53 on 17 June 2016 |
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| One question for Alice you say "We hear moans about EU Health and Safety regulations. These are not trivial, but designed to protect workers from chemical, electrical and construction accidents".
I am a fully qualified UK spark, please tell me what EU regs protect me and my customers, I work to BS7671 which is known as 'the regs', 7671 is far superior in safety to all other EU countries and many sparks in other EU countries aim to work to this standard as it is higher with regards to safety than there own national regs. BS7671 is a British standard not an EU standard. |
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Michael James Felse wrote
at 18:23:01 on 16 June 2016 |
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| Sorry to offend SunnyRay, but facts clearly show the Tories are dumping migrants. We cannot allow the authorities down south to put more migrants onto trains or buses towards the north without a settlement plan. It is a disgrace to dump anyone. Yes, I fear if the UK does not reclaim our borders we will see France, Germany and Belgium instigate a mass dumping policy. This is why I am voting leave this Thursday, to protect our borders, our country, our communities and to offer safer, securer life to validated migrants using a quality points system. |
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The Fat End of the Wedge wrote
at 17:07:22 on 16 June 2016 |
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| Regarding Steve Hopkins comment "In the Salford hospital where I worked there are certainly more migrant doctors per migrant patient than there are UK doctors per indigenous Salfordian, so we’d be in a bit of a mess without immigration." - many UK doctors go to work elsewhere in the world after their training (Australia for example) for better pay and conditions. Spare a thought for the countries where the immigrant doctors have come from who may be facing a shortage of good doctors, as they have come here for the same reasons ours left. All well and good, but if we could retain ours then the poorer countries would maybe not lose out so much. Of course, with our 'booming' population the requirement for health workers can only increase.
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Happy Days wrote
at 17:07:19 on 16 June 2016 |
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| Everyone that I speak with are all voting out, only one neighbour has a vote in. They are migrants and do not understand what the UK is close to becoming as they have not been here long enough.
Once we vote out of the EU, can we vote the DICTATORSHIP out of Salford as they are all self serving bullies.
Mr Felse, you already have my tick. |
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RayofSunshine wrote
at 17:06:24 on 16 June 2016 |
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| I wish to make my disgust plain about Michael
F else's latest post where he refers to quote,
"a dumping ground for migrants!"
Is there no low, in the pursuit of publicity
and sensationalism, that this sewer rat won't
stoop to? |
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Dar... wrote
at 13:13:18 on 15 June 2016 |
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| I come from one of the poorest parts of Europe and most of our problems are caused and perpetuated by the EU. That's why I'm here! We are also prevented from fixing those problems by the EU, who are the absolute outright enemy of the poor and the working class. The EU mercilessly crushes and oppresses the poor in my country. Any money from the EU can only be spent on what they say, which is always a useless white elephant that does nothing for the poor or the region and only profits corporations and usually goes bankrupt. Don't listen to any breathtaking lies about socialist politicians controlling the EU! Nothing could be further from the truth! The EU is, always has been, and always will be mercilessly anti trade union, anti workers rights, and ruthlessly capitalist. That's what it was created to be, a 'free market' for capitalists, and absolutely nothing has changed and never possibly could. If you wanted to create the NHS today the EU would prevent it. They want a totally American private health care system throughout the EU, like they forced my country to have when we wanted to create one like yours. You can influence Westminster, not by much, but you can sometimes get what you need. The Lords isn't the main power Westminster is. The EU will never listen to you and you can never influence it. You are worse off now because you're in it, and you'd have to be a masochist to want more fifty shades of EU domination. |
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Alice Searle wrote
at 11:18:33 on 15 June 2016 |
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| Gosh I really don't want to get into a EU tussle! By co-incidence I am sending this from Greece, the country which is still sore and really still fighting the EU regulations. Chatting with the locals, I must say they are still angry and want the UK to leave so they can! My sons also say Leave, so I am torn by the arguments from both sides which are all valid. BUT, even if accused of being an idealist and optimist, my inclinations are still to say we should work together, get rid of the greedy corporations which are stalking every corridor of Brussels and aim for a better, cleaner, and more cooperative EU.i cannot stand the bigoted, racist attitude of some of the Out campaign. That is so ignorant. I return from Mainland Europe to cast my vote, cross my fingers and hope for a better EU. |
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Steve Hopkins wrote
at 10:56:21 on 15 June 2016 |
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| It is understandable that many Salfordians are angry about the current situation, but I hope they can consider how much worse it would be out of the EU. It is true that there was a time when the EU was becoming an elitist neoliberal club, allowing big industrial financiers to profit. That is understandably why Thatcher wanted ‘IN’ and Corbyn wanted ‘OUT’. However, since then it has been largely in the hands of (elected) politicians with a more socialist agenda. That has contributed to better workers rights, legislation on food standards, health and safety and the environment: another reason why the right-wing Brexiters hate it and why socialists like Jeremy Corbyn recognise it now has value.
It’s true we are a net contributor of finance, but there is a reason for that. We get a lot more back indirectly. And of the money that does come back from the EU there is a big commitment to improving poorer areas. As well as improving conditions in some newer member states, which will means its population will be less inclined to move to richer countries for work, large amounts come to places like the N.E. the N.W, the S.W. and Wales. Not much goes to the more affluent south: another reason the Tories hate it. As far as supporting industry goes, the EU could have blocked Chinese steel imports, but which was the biggest country in Europe that blocked that? The UK: so how would being out of Europe impoved things there?
It is true that immigration puts (more) pressure on poorer areas in terms of schools and health services, but the pressure is largely down to the Tory government refusing to distribute funds according to need, not immigration itself. If the present government really wanted to limit immigration it could have done so. At least half of immigration is as a result of people coming from outside the EU and the government has not even hit its immigration target with that section of the population. In the Salford hospital where I worked there are certainly more migrant doctors per migrant patient than there are UK doctors per indigenous Salfordian, so we’d be in a bit of a mess without immigration.
In terms of democracy and sovereignty, of the three main legislative pillars in the UK, only the House of Commons has any reasonable claim to democratic existence: our head of state and the House of Lords have essentially none. In the EU the MEPs are there via proportional representation, which is arguably far more democratic than our first past the post election and the Council of Ministers has elected representatives of our elected government. Even the Commission has a representative chosen by our elected government, though it is in effect more like a Civil Service than a legislature.
The EU is not perfect, as exemplified by its failure to deal sensibly with the refugee crisis. But it does have many high ideals which we should support, from its (effective) foundation to prevent further conflict in Europe, to its demonstrated actions to try and make Europe a better place to live. The Murdoch press (which hates the EU because it does not have influence there) is frightening people, but it is areas like Salford that will suffer. The EU is one of the few protections poorer people have against, not just this Tory government, but right wing extremists generally.
Please take a long, hard look at the sort of Tories that are supporting leave before throwing the European baby out with the (admitedly dirty) bathwater. And then elect a decent socialist Labour government to clean it up!
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Dar... wrote
at 10:56:15 on 15 June 2016 |
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| The 'Right' are delusional about the EU. The 'Left' are delusional about the EU. You can't afford to be. There is zero democracy involved in who gets to wield the supreme powers of the EU. The MEP's are just powerless phoney window dressing, but political parties get money through them. Stop being conned. You have zero influence over any critical decision made in Brussels and you never, never, ever will. Corporations, banks, the USA and the corrupt 1%'ers who own them also own the offices of actual power in the EU. You can't 'change it from the inside' because you don't own it, and those who do have absolutely no reason to listen to you. Wake up England, the EU's never been a democracy and it never can be. The EU doesn't act in your interest, they never have and they never ever will. You think they've even heard of Salford or give a damn about the North of England? You are utterly insignificant drops in the EU ocean. Westminster at least can be democratically forced to acknowledge your existence sometimes, but Brussels can ignore you for forever. Stop being slaves, stop helping them build another Empire, you know how that always goes. |
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RayofSunshine wrote
at 09:29:02 on 15 June 2016 |
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| Whilst accepting that there is a legitimate
and honourable case for a Left Leave Europe Campaign as ably presented by Alan Duke, I fear though that a victory for "No" on the 23rd of June will fundamentally be a victory for the right! It is no exaggeration to say that victory for "No" would be a great defeat for the Left and Progressives in Britain akin to what happened in the aftermath of the defeat of the miners in 1985!
Britain outside the E.U would be a depressed and insular place; "A Carnival of Reaction" where a myriad of k ranks, reactionaries and opportunists, aka Michael F else, would make "the political weather".
Vote "Yes" on June 23rd! |
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Michael James Felse wrote
at 09:28:57 on 15 June 2016 |
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| Delighted to now be a member of UKIP. I urge others in Salford and Greater Manchester supporting Brexit to come and prepare for a new future in our North West by joining especially those like myself wanting secure borders. We must act now or risk the end of the great life we have in our free communities. I joined and like what I see and hear as an inclusive UK family of trust and hope. |
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The Fat End of the Wedge wrote
at 22:15:06 on 14 June 2016 |
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| Very uninformed arguments on both sides.
Next time get people living in the real world.
"Farage and the racist right" get a lot of support from 2nd/3rd generation immigrants whose families settled in a time when immigration was under control.
EU migrants are the lesser percentage of immigration currently. Yet nobody explains how people from outside of Europe seem to have 'free movement'.
Never mind, let's just keep building homes for them all until the country sinks in a mire of pollution/crime/civil disturbance/bankruptcy etc.
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Michael James Felse wrote
at 13:47:25 on 14 June 2016 |
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| On a local view I ask if you voted for the spend forced on us by the EU in its project investments in Salford. (1) MediaCityUK a new Hotel and office development to create a 100 bedroomed hotel. Cost £15million. EU's grant towards only £6million. (2) MediaCity at The Landing serving media companies, that cost £13million. EU grant only £6million of the £13million. And another is (3) The Soapworks - Exchange Quay. To support the redevelopment of ColgatePalmolive factory (Salford Quays). Cost £28million. EU grant £7million. We see EU grants favour The Quays pet projects that Salford Council love to support with our council tax but not in the rest of Salford. WHY vote for the EU? I think not. |
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Michael James Felse wrote
at 11:02:50 on 14 June 2016 |
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| Alice tells us 1946 began the EU process, before most of us were even born. It was a time devastated by war, many loved ones in the war died. Decisions were driven by emotions. Since then the EU has begun to work against us to the point where our borders are the main issue with good reason. It is not 1946, but if we stay in the EU for sure in another 70 years our England will become a dumping ground for migrants, fracking, cheap labour, loss of our human rights, an unbalanced influx of EU goods and higher food costs enriching none UK farmers. We will lose our pension triple lock along with women's rights. We must this year vote out. |
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Dar... wrote
at 06:23:27 on 14 June 2016 |
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| As an EU migrant I will lose my right to live and work here if you vote to leave, but please, VOTE LEAVE. I am, and I wish my country had the chance to leave too! I might not be British but I've served alongside the British and lived here long enough to want what's right for here even if that works out worse for me.
Alice Searle on behalf of the EU claims that:-
"Speaking as a Woman…
...and a mother I appreciate the regulations that are protecting maternity leave and employment rights. They have made a radical difference to family life."
What she fails to tell you is Statutory Maternity Leave in UK 52 weeks, in EU 14 weeks. In UK women get 90% salary for 6 weeks then £140per week for 33 weeks. There is no EU statutory maternity payment at all, zip, nothing. The rights women here have, women here voted for through Westminster.
Minimum wage isn't enough to live on here, but it's infinitely higher than the EU which has no minimum wage at all.
Equal pay? Paid holidays? Yeah, you had legislation for these in the UK before you joined the EU.
The EU exists for big corporations only. Not for you or me. You can't change it from the inside because you don't own it and never will.
I've got family and friends back home and in France, Spain and Italy who are really praying that you are still the English. If you vote leave, we can all add pressure to have our own referenda, and believe me most want out, out, out!
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