On Boxing Day, Salix Homes Chief Executive Lee Sugden was in Calderdale helping in vain to stop neighbours' houses from being flooded when he got the call that the Irwell was about to burst its banks in Lower Broughton.
At least in Calderdale residents got a warning that the place was about to be flooded. In Salford there were none. Residents say that before previous floods in the area, the police had gone around with megaphones or sirens sounded. While it wasn't Salix's responsibility for giving warnings, whose responsibility was it?
Lee Sugden (LS): I understand that the Environment Agency provides communities with information and warnings for impending floods. I would support the community's voice in having a better warning system for the future. It is a known flood risk area so I don't understand why that can't be done for the future...I feel quite strongly that we now need to look as a collective group of agencies at what we can do, and I think sirens...
Salford Star (SS): Hasn't the area already got sirens?
LS: I don't speak with a full set of facts but when I have asked the question about sirens for floods, one of the issues is that there are apparently sirens which relate to some chemical factory. I don't know the details but one of the concerns of the Environment Agency is that there may be conflicting warnings which wouldn't work.
SS: Some houses were given these Flood Angel gates which were supposed to protect houses, some didn't have them at all. But they were absolutely hopeless. While the gates were installed before Salix took over the ownership of the houses, could someone had done something better?
LS: They were not specifically our responsibility but we need to have a think about what we do for the future because, I agree, they didn't work. We need to think for the future as part of the repair work to build in greater resilience to any future floods. And we intend to do that.
SS: The Government is giving £5,000 per house to help build such resilience and there's been false rumours that tenants are going to get this, rather than Salix Homes and owner occupiers. Can you clear this up?
LS: It's a £5,000 grant available to home owners, which is Salix, to improve the flood resilience of properties. So we will be availing ourselves of that, working with surveyors and professionals to assess the damage and see what is needed to put it right. But what we want to do as part of that repair work is to build resilience defences into the structure of the buildings. There may be better ways we can defend front doors rather than having Flood Angel gates...there might be work we can do with airbricks to better defend that access point for water...there's also plastic skirting boards. There are ways in which you can build in resilience, and the £5,000 is for us to do that.
SS: So people aren't going to get washing machines, ovens and stuff out of it?
LS: The support the Government offers is the £500 everyone has had, and the £5,000 for the home owner, so that doesn't go to the tenants.
SS: 90% of tenants were not insured, so what help can they expect to replace things like carpets, sofas and everything else that was destroyed in the flood?
LS: The first thing to say is what a magnificent response it was from the community, and one of the things I was keen to do during the holiday period was to reel in the structured community voluntary services like Helping Hands and the Credit Union to bring a bit of structured order away from the people running on good will. People like those at St Bonifaces were fantastic but they only have so much capacity and it's not a two day solution; it's a two month solution at least. I think that's worked really well. We see Helping Hands still helping out with white goods and soft furnishings.
We launched our financial support package on Friday and that will be in place [for full details see here]. There will be support through the drying out phase, mainly related to energy costs, and then the repair phase of £50 a week, and that will run until the house is completed and signed off. We spoke to some people over the weekend and many of them said they were going to put it to one side, that windfall cash...
SS: It's not really a windfall is it? People have got no ovens and cookers; they're living off take outs, using launderettes...there's all sorts of things and expenses. We wouldn't call it a `windfall'?
LS: Absolutely but the people we were speaking to were very much saying they were going to put it to one side to get some sort of normality back into the downstairs of their houses, and they'd have something to be able to put the finishing touches to it.
The insurance is a real issue and the conversations I want to have now with the community is to understand why the take up was so low. We know how many people we had on our insurance scheme, about 15%. Some people I spoke to said they knew about the insurance but chose not to take it, and I get it. If it's a choice between managing a risk that might happen, versus putting some food on the table I know what I'd do – I understand that.
SS: The Flood Support Centre at the RITA House wasn't open until eleven days after the flood. Meanwhile there was a lot of confusion with people going to the Broughton Trust, St Bonifaces and the Beacon Centre trying to get information. Could Salix have reacted faster?
LS: No. I understand that every day that goes past when people have suffered a catastrophic event like this feels like a month, so I get that. We had eighty of our employees who gave up part of their holiday in order to help and support people. We weren't in a position to do anything until we got the organisation back together on the 4th January. But in the intervening period we were prioritising safety, making sure people were safe and secure.
SS: There was criticism from residents that people were left for quite a long period of time with no-one coming to talk with them or assessing their needs. Can you respond to this?
LS: If we missed them it wasn't through a lack of effort. From the 27th we had eighty people who were out with high vis jackets knocking on doors. We had a list of all properties that could potentially be affected and our priority was to have sight of every one of those tenants to make sure they were safe. My fear was that there was somebody sat behind a door in three feet of water but thankfully there wasn't.
SS: On Spike Island and around John Street there are a lot of vulnerable, elderly and sick people. Did you have a list of these?
LS: We had a list of people who we knew were vulnerable, as did social services and the health service. Where we knew there were vulnerabilities they were prioritised and we did know who they were. Interestingly we have now got to know those who are vulnerable but we didn't know about. So, for people who we knew, we had a list and they were prioritised.
SS: If we go back to the financial package offered, the £50 a week disturbance is only for those Salix tenants who stay in their houses, rather than for those who move to the alternative accommodation being offered. Yet those who move have still got to pay for utilities in the house they've left behind, furnish the new property and pay for other expenses like take outs if they haven't got ovens, and taxi or bus fares back to Lower Broughton...
LS: We'll talk to people individually about this. If they aren't living in the property then the reality is that the running costs will be low. The dilemma, which I understand, is that we don't have furnished properties. If someone has lost their sofa and lost their fridge, then they've lost it whether on Spike Island or in the new place. But people wouldn't need to go back to Lower Broughton, their old house would be a shell. There are very few people who have moved but it would be for six months.
SS: Can you understand that most people don't want to move out of their houses?
LS: Yes, of course I can. It is a community, there's a really close bond and knit in that community. There's kids at school; there's a whole range of reasons why people want to stay.
SS: Is it actually safe for people to stay in their houses? There are reports from the community of asbestos in the houses...
LS: As far as I'm aware we have had everything checked out and everything is safe. If anybody's got any concerns phone us or drop into the support centre and someone will help alleviate those concerns.
SS: Asbestos is safe if it's undisturbed but we understand there was asbestos in the floor tiles which might have been disturbed?
LS: As far as I'm aware there is no risk but if anyone has any concerns they should get in touch with us right away.
SS: Do you think there were too many `cooks' flapping around when the flood happened and people got confused? Salix has taken the flak from a lot of people because you are the housing association but we're hearing that Salford City Council did almost nothing, apart from send refuse wagons and street sweepers around the estate.
LS: My job is to look after Salix Homes and our tenants, and we have a real responsibility for them. We were part of the emergency response team and I don't think anybody ought to criticise the response from the environment services from the Council. I think they were amazing, the streets were cleaned...
SS: We're talking as well about the political response. There was nothing on the Council website for over two days. There was no message from the Mayor showing sympathy for residents, nothing...
LS: That's an opinion and I'm not going to offer a view on that...
SS: So you don't think that the Council said `Oh it's a Salix estate, sod it; let them take it on'?
LS: Not at all. One of the things that I accept is that some people don't necessarily understand the difference between Salix Homes, the Council and the Environment Agency, and now is not the time for us to get precious. At the end of the day it's all hands to the pump. I've seen some of the comments and everyone's entitled to an opinion but I think sometimes people don't understand that there are a number of organisations that have different responsibilities. If I asked for anything from the Council when I was in those emergency response meetings I got it.
SS: There are a number of different flood relief funds for the community. Do you know how that money is going to be distributed?
LS: We are not involved with that directly, it's being managed elsewhere. I understand that people can put in bids and there will be some kind of process for decision and allocation of resources but I don't know the process. We will be involved in that but it's very early days and I don't know any more.
SS: So if someone's lost a cooker or fridge they've got very little chance of getting money to replace it if they haven't got insurance?
LS: Volunteers are the main focus of that at the moment. I need to understand how people can have protection in the future, it's quite distressing.
SS: The only houses that got flooded in Lower Broughton were the social housing and the privately owned former social housing. Only the poor people got flooded, do you find that depressing?
LS: I have to confess that as I drove round it became all too apparent that the new houses were built higher than the old houses. I wouldn't say only the poor people got flooded, I'd say that thankfully people have learned and built new houses in a way that protects them from the risks that are apparent in the area. But it is unfortunate that it is the social housing and Salix houses that got flooded.
SS: There's been so many studies and schemes that predicted this would happen, yet it still happened...
LS: The only way to sort it out is to probably re-model the whole area and build the houses in the way that the new houses have been built. But we'll do what we can to build in resilience as part of the repair work. That's a priority now.
SS: Before Salix had the houses, there were plans to demolish Spike Island and the houses around John Street, which were fought off by the community. Can you guarantee that once the work has been done the houses will stay?
LS: I'm not aware of any plans for any of our houses being scheduled for any kind of redevelopment.
SS: So there's no danger of saying `The repair bill is too much let's knock them down'?
LS: Oh no, no, no absolutely not. Every house will be repaired and wherever possible we will build in resilience and flood defences to those houses.
SS: And after that they are safe from the bulldozers?
LS: As far as I'm concerned they are. I've no intention of bulldozing any of the houses, that's for sure.
Lee Sugden was speaking to Salford Star editor Stephen Kingston.
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